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Michel Hairaud
Bonjour à tous/Hi to everyone I am passing along
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Ciboria / Rutstroemia (?)
Sebastien Basso,
29-03-2025 05:45
I'm conducting a mycological inventory in two greenhouses in a park in downtown Lyon, one tropical and one temperate. This ascomycetes was found in the second. The substrate is of undefined origin. In the immediate area, there were Camellia japonica and Alpinia caerulea. The spore size is similar to those of Ciboria latipes, which grows on Rubus chamaemorus, although the original description doesn't mention amyloid asci. There are probably other hypotheses, and I'll sequence it, like everything I find in these greenhouses. If you have other hypotheses, they're welcome. Thank you.
Spores size :
(9,1) 9,7 - 11,8 (13,6) × (4,2) 4,4 - 5,7 (5,8) µm
Q = (1,6) 1,9 - 2,3 (2,7) ; N = 41
Me = 10,9 × 5,2 µm ; Qe = 2,1
Q = (1,6) 1,9 - 2,3 (2,7) ; N = 41
Me = 10,9 × 5,2 µm ; Qe = 2,1
Ascis size :
(108,0) 108,6 - 115,4 (117,2) × (5,4) 6,1 - 6,85 (6,9) µm
Q = (15,8) 16,0 - 18,6 (20,9) ; N = 9
Me = 112,5 × 6,4 µm ; Qe = 17,6
Q = (15,8) 16,0 - 18,6 (20,9) ; N = 9
Me = 112,5 × 6,4 µm ; Qe = 17,6
Michel Hairaud,
29-03-2025 07:48
Re : Ciboria / Rutstroemia (?)
Bonjour Sebastien, bienvenue sur Ascofrance,
De mémoire, il me semble que Ciborinia camelliae possède certains des caractères décrits
Amitiés Michel
De mémoire, il me semble que Ciborinia camelliae possède certains des caractères décrits
Amitiés Michel
Sebastien Basso,
29-03-2025 07:58
Re : Ciboria / Rutstroemia (?)
Bonjour,
en effet, cela convient très bien !
Sous camellia , ciborinia camilliae !
bonne journée
Hans-Otto Baral,
29-03-2025 10:05
Re : Ciboria / Rutstroemia (?)
Interesting collection! I suggest to illustrate the living paraphyses. There are three sample from 2013 illustrated by Enrique Rubio in which they contain low-refractive VBs. I also see a fantly amyloid medulla with crystals. The spore contents look a bit different there.
Your ascus measurements clearly refer to dead asci. Enrique measured up to *137 x 10 µm.
Sequences (ITS+LSU) from eastern Asia exist in GenBank, so it would be interesting to compare.
Sebastien Basso,
29-03-2025 10:29
Re : Ciboria / Rutstroemia (?)
Hello !
Thanks for you answer !
Will get back in the greenhouse , they were a lot .
And do what you suggested.
Sébastien
Thanks for you answer !
Will get back in the greenhouse , they were a lot .
And do what you suggested.
Sébastien
Michel Hairaud,
29-03-2025 12:30
Re : Ciboria / Rutstroemia (?)
Sébastien, s'ils s'agit de C. camelliae, il devrait y avaoir des sclérotes à la base des stipes (enfouis dans l'humus probablement). Nous avons trouvé cette espèce en grand nombre dans un parc en Bretagne (22) avec une très grande collection de camélias , en plein air.
Je dispose d une documentation assez complète
Michel
Je dispose d une documentation assez complète
Michel
Sebastien Basso,
29-03-2025 12:33
Re : Ciboria / Rutstroemia (?)
Merci ! Oui il y avait des sclérotes et la littéralture est nombreuse sur le sujet , notamment une étude de 2023 en Italie avec la génétique .
Hans-Otto Baral,
21-04-2025 08:25
Re : Ciboria / Rutstroemia (?)
Dear Sebastien
I am about to finish an article on Scleromitrula/Ciborinia, dealing mainly with Sclerotinia capillipes. The matter about C. camelliae brought me today to realize that Japanese C. camelliae was desribed wth spores of 5.3-7 x 2.5-3.5, so much smaller than yours and Enrique's docus show. I am also curious about the original description of Sclerotinia camelliae Hara (1919) which is, according to Kohn (1979: 399) not the same as S. camelliae Hansen & Thomas which is an obligate synonym of C. camelliae Kohn.
Did you try sequencing of your sample? I am unaware of the recent Italian contribution you mentioned, but I noticed the "unpublished" paper of Saracchi & Pasquali in GenBank (e.g. MW624718). - Ah, I found it : https://www.mdpi.com/2076-2607/11/11/2727
Zotto
Viktorie Halasu,
21-04-2025 11:25
Re : Ciboria / Rutstroemia (?)
Dear Zotto,
here's Hara's article and an approximate translation (google + deepl combined, but there are still some errors left and I don't the language to correct them).
Viktorie
here's Hara's article and an approximate translation (google + deepl combined, but there are still some errors left and I don't the language to correct them).
Viktorie
On-the-sclerotinia-disease-of-camelia-Hara-1919--0001.pdf
Hans-Otto Baral,
21-04-2025 16:25
Re : Ciboria / Rutstroemia (?)
Thank you so much Viktorie!
incredible to have a new species publshed in Chinese.
Surely Species Fungorum is wrong who puts this in synonymy with Ciborinia camelliae Kohn.
I see it has the spore length of Enrique's and Sebastiens fungus, but the width might be erroneous. The Saracchi article does not provide any morphology, regrettably. I fear this article is very difficult to use.
Martin Bemmann,
21-04-2025 18:15
Re : Ciboria / Rutstroemia (?)
It is not Chinese but Japanese.
Victorie, do you have a good citation for Hara 1919?
Best regards
Martin
Viktorie Halasu,
21-04-2025 19:08
Re : Ciboria / Rutstroemia (?)
This one was used in C.H.Taylor's thesis about the species (both Saracchi and IF contain small typos):
Hara K (1919): A sclerotial disease of camelia (Camellia japonica). Dainippon Sanrin Kaiho 436: 29-31.
I don't know the researcher's first name - translators translated it as "Setsuke" but all mentioned papers cite "K. Hara".
Hara K (1919): A sclerotial disease of camelia (Camellia japonica). Dainippon Sanrin Kaiho 436: 29-31.
I don't know the researcher's first name - translators translated it as "Setsuke" but all mentioned papers cite "K. Hara".
The journal's archive is here: http://sanrin.sanrinkai.or.jp/
Saracchi et al cite another Kohn & Nagasawa article from 1984 in a japanese journal I haven't found yet: Kohn, L.M.; Nagasawa, E. A Taxonomic Reassessment of Sclerotinia camelliae Synonym Ciborinia camelliae with Observations on Flower Blight of Camellia japonica in Japan. Nippon. Kingakukai Kaiho 1984, 25, 149–162.
Hans-Otto Baral,
21-04-2025 20:09
Re : Ciboria / Rutstroemia (?)
This latter paper I do not know either. It would prhaps solve the question about this Hara species. In any case, Ciborinia camelliae can only be Hansen & Thomas's fungus with small spores.
Viktorie Halasu,
21-04-2025 23:34
Re : Ciboria / Rutstroemia (?)
The latter is actually Japanese Journal of Mycology = Transactions of the Mycological Society of Japan. Unfortunately the journal's online archive goes back only to no. 33.
Hans-Otto Baral,
22-04-2025 07:18
Re : Ciboria / Rutstroemia (?)
I am underestimating my literature database. Here you can find the nice paper of Kohn & Nagasawa:
Spore size fits Enrique's etc. collections. Kohn discussed spore size but I could not find a hint in that paper on the small spores in Hansen & Thomas (5.3-7 x 2.5-3.5):
Kohn & Nagasawa's description: *7.5-12.5 x 4-5(-6)
holotype of camelliae Hara: +9-10 x 3-5
holotype of camelliae Kohn: +7-10 x 3.5-4
new collection +7-11 x 3-5
Sebastien Basso,
22-04-2025 09:20
Re : Ciboria / Rutstroemia (?)
Hello ,
Some spécimens have been sent for sequencing to the museum of Paris , but it Will take a little while , usually they do ITS and LSU (28S) , will keep you posted !
Some spécimens have been sent for sequencing to the museum of Paris , but it Will take a little while , usually they do ITS and LSU (28S) , will keep you posted !
Martin Bemmann,
22-04-2025 09:22
Re : Ciboria / Rutstroemia (?)
Martin Bemmann,
22-04-2025 10:29
Re : Ciboria / Rutstroemia (?)
I created a PDF from Kohn&Nagasawa 1984 (attached).
Masanori Kutsuna,
23-04-2025 02:49
Re : Ciboria / Rutstroemia (?)
In 1919, Hara published at least four papers on C. camelliae (as Sclerotinia camelliae) in the following journals.
"Shizuokaken Noukaiho 256, 10-11", "Dainippon Sanrin Kaiho 436, 29-31", "Nouji Shinpo 13(5), 17-18", "Engei no Tomo 15, 385-388".
"Shizuokaken Noukaiho 256, 10-11", "Dainippon Sanrin Kaiho 436, 29-31", "Nouji Shinpo 13(5), 17-18", "Engei no Tomo 15, 385-388".
All in Japanese and almost identical in content.
"Dainippon Sanrin Kaiho" was published on March 15, 1919, but "Shizuokaken Noukaiho" was published earlier, on February 25.
This paper is not mentioned in Kohn and Nagasawa, IF, or MyCoBank, but I believe it is the earliest paper validly published.
This paper contains specimen data not found in the other papers.
The "Shizuokaken Noukaiho 256" archived at:
https://agriknowledge.affrc.go.jp/RN/2039006141.pdf
Kutsuna
Hans-Otto Baral,
23-04-2025 07:15
Re : Ciboria / Rutstroemia (?)
Hi Kutsuna. Interesting! Is there a possibility to translate automatically?
The pdf is rather big, is this all about the fungus? I am mainly interested in spore size, but cannot find it in either version.
Zotto
Masanori Kutsuna,
23-04-2025 08:17
Re : Ciboria / Rutstroemia (?)
Hara's paper is p. 10-11. (attached)
Automatic translation seems difficult.
Automatic translation seems difficult.
According to Hara's description, specimen collected on Apr. 21, 1918, ascospores are 8-11 × 4-5.
Kutsuna
Hans-Otto Baral,
23-04-2025 09:15
Re : Ciboria / Rutstroemia (?)
Thanks a lot! That spore size makes sense.