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08-12-2004 22:32

Jean-Paul Priou Jean-Paul Priou

Christian, Dans les fiches il serait intéress

08-12-2004 19:57

Hermosilla Carlos Enrique

Est ce que certain peut m'expliquer bien la réact

07-12-2004 22:17

Jean-Paul Priou Jean-Paul Priou

Christian je ne trouve pas de photo de ce taxon su

07-12-2004 13:57

Hermosilla Carlos Enrique

Il manque le genre je crois dans le base de donné

07-12-2004 12:29

Hermosilla Carlos Enrique

Avec vous une clé pour Daldinia d'Europe? Je trou

07-12-2004 11:34

Hermosilla Carlos Enrique

Pour faire des photos des gros plain: > 2 x les ce

07-12-2004 10:13

Jean-Claude Malaval Jean-Claude Malaval

Je pense avoir découvert Nitschkia collapsa et Rh

06-12-2004 16:51

Christian Lechat Christian Lechat

Bonjour à tous, je viens vous demander votre avi

06-12-2004 14:24

Anthony Thibault Anthony Thibault

Bonjour à tous et à toutes, à la demande de Chr

05-12-2004 14:35

Henri NOGUERE

Bonjours à tous, Dans Breitenbach & Kränzlin

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Ciboria / Rutstroemia (?)
Sebastien Basso, 29-03-2025 05:45
Hello,

I'm conducting a mycological inventory in two greenhouses in a park in downtown Lyon, one tropical and one temperate. This ascomycetes was found in the second. The substrate is of undefined origin. In the immediate area, there were Camellia japonica and Alpinia caerulea. The spore size is similar to those of Ciboria latipes, which grows on Rubus chamaemorus, although the original description doesn't mention amyloid asci. There are probably other hypotheses, and I'll sequence it, like everything I find in these greenhouses. If you have other hypotheses, they're welcome. Thank you.

Spores size :

(9,1) 9,7 - 11,8 (13,6) × (4,2) 4,4 - 5,7 (5,8) µm
Q = (1,6) 1,9 - 2,3 (2,7) ; N = 41
Me = 10,9 × 5,2 µm ; Qe = 2,1

Ascis size :

(108,0) 108,6 - 115,4 (117,2) × (5,4) 6,1 - 6,85 (6,9) µm
Q = (15,8) 16,0 - 18,6 (20,9) ; N = 9
Me = 112,5 × 6,4 µm ; Qe = 17,6
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Michel Hairaud, 29-03-2025 07:48
Michel Hairaud
Re : Ciboria / Rutstroemia (?)
Bonjour Sebastien, bienvenue sur Ascofrance, 

De mémoire, il me semble que Ciborinia camelliae possède certains des caractères décrits

Amitiés Michel
Sebastien Basso, 29-03-2025 07:58
Re : Ciboria / Rutstroemia (?)
Bonjour,

en effet, cela convient très bien !

Sous camellia , ciborinia camilliae !

bonne journée
Hans-Otto Baral, 29-03-2025 10:05
Hans-Otto Baral
Re : Ciboria / Rutstroemia (?)
Interesting collection! I suggest to illustrate the living paraphyses. There are three sample from 2013 illustrated by Enrique Rubio in which they contain low-refractive VBs. I also see a fantly amyloid medulla with crystals. The spore contents look a bit different there.

Your ascus measurements clearly refer to dead asci. Enrique measured up to *137 x 10 µm.

Sequences (ITS+LSU) from eastern Asia exist in GenBank, so it would be interesting to compare.
Sebastien Basso, 29-03-2025 10:29
Re : Ciboria / Rutstroemia (?)
Hello !
Thanks for you answer !
Will get back in the greenhouse , they were a lot .
And do what you suggested.
Sébastien
Michel Hairaud, 29-03-2025 12:30
Michel Hairaud
Re : Ciboria / Rutstroemia (?)
Sébastien, s'ils s'agit de C. camelliae, il devrait y avaoir des sclérotes à la base des stipes (enfouis dans l'humus probablement). Nous avons trouvé cette espèce en grand nombre dans un parc en Bretagne (22) avec une très grande collection de camélias , en plein air. 
Je dispose d une documentation assez complète

Michel
Sebastien Basso, 29-03-2025 12:33
Re : Ciboria / Rutstroemia (?)
Merci ! Oui il y avait des sclérotes et la littéralture est nombreuse sur le sujet , notamment une étude de 2023 en Italie avec la génétique .
Hans-Otto Baral, 21-04-2025 08:25
Hans-Otto Baral
Re : Ciboria / Rutstroemia (?)
Dear Sebastien

I am about to finish an article on Scleromitrula/Ciborinia, dealing mainly with Sclerotinia capillipes. The matter about C. camelliae brought me today to realize that Japanese C. camelliae was desribed wth spores of 5.3-7 x 2.5-3.5, so much smaller than yours and Enrique's docus show. I am also curious about the original description of Sclerotinia camelliae Hara (1919) which is, according to Kohn (1979: 399) not the same as S. camelliae Hansen & Thomas which is an obligate synonym of C. camelliae Kohn.

Did you try sequencing of your sample? I am unaware of the recent Italian contribution you mentioned, but I noticed the "unpublished" paper of Saracchi & Pasquali in GenBank (e.g. MW624718). - Ah, I found it : https://www.mdpi.com/2076-2607/11/11/2727

Zotto
Viktorie Halasu, 21-04-2025 11:25
Viktorie Halasu
Re : Ciboria / Rutstroemia (?)
Dear Zotto, 

here's Hara's article and an approximate translation (google + deepl combined, but there are still some errors left and I don't the language to correct them). 

Viktorie

Hans-Otto Baral, 21-04-2025 16:25
Hans-Otto Baral
Re : Ciboria / Rutstroemia (?)
Thank you so much Viktorie!

incredible to have a new species publshed in Chinese.

Surely Species Fungorum is wrong who puts this in synonymy with Ciborinia camelliae Kohn.

I see it has the spore length of Enrique's and Sebastiens fungus, but the width might be erroneous. The Saracchi article does not provide any morphology, regrettably. I fear this article is very difficult to use.
Martin Bemmann, 21-04-2025 18:15
Martin Bemmann
Re : Ciboria / Rutstroemia (?)
It is not Chinese but Japanese.

Victorie, do you have a good citation for Hara 1919?

Best regards

Martin
Viktorie Halasu, 21-04-2025 19:08
Viktorie Halasu
Re : Ciboria / Rutstroemia (?)
This one was used in C.H.Taylor's thesis about the species (both Saracchi and IF contain small typos):
Hara K (1919): A sclerotial disease of camelia (Camellia japonica). Dainippon Sanrin Kaiho 436: 29-31.
I don't know the researcher's first name - translators translated it as "Setsuke" but all mentioned papers cite "K. Hara". 

The journal's archive is here: http://sanrin.sanrinkai.or.jp/


Saracchi et al cite another Kohn & Nagasawa article from 1984 in a japanese journal I haven't found yet: Kohn, L.M.; Nagasawa, E. A Taxonomic Reassessment of Sclerotinia camelliae Synonym Ciborinia camelliae with Observations on Flower Blight of Camellia japonica in Japan. Nippon. Kingakukai Kaiho 1984, 25, 149–162.

Hans-Otto Baral, 21-04-2025 20:09
Hans-Otto Baral
Re : Ciboria / Rutstroemia (?)
This latter paper I do not know either. It would prhaps solve the question about this Hara species. In any case, Ciborinia camelliae can only be Hansen & Thomas's fungus with small spores.
Viktorie Halasu, 21-04-2025 23:34
Viktorie Halasu
Re : Ciboria / Rutstroemia (?)
The latter is actually Japanese Journal of Mycology = Transactions of the Mycological Society of Japan. Unfortunately the journal's online archive goes back only to no. 33. 

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Hans-Otto Baral, 22-04-2025 07:18
Hans-Otto Baral
Re : Ciboria / Rutstroemia (?)
I am underestimating my literature database. Here you can find the nice paper of Kohn & Nagasawa:


Spore size fits Enrique's etc. collections. Kohn discussed spore size but I could not find a hint in that paper on the small spores in Hansen & Thomas (5.3-7 x 2.5-3.5):

Kohn & Nagasawa's description: *7.5-12.5 x 4-5(-6)

holotype of camelliae Hara: +9-10 x 3-5

holotype of camelliae Kohn: +7-10 x 3.5-4

new collection +7-11 x 3-5
Sebastien Basso, 22-04-2025 09:20
Re : Ciboria / Rutstroemia (?)
Hello ,
Some spécimens have been sent for sequencing to the museum of Paris , but it Will take a little while , usually they do ITS and LSU (28S) , will keep you posted !
Martin Bemmann, 22-04-2025 09:22
Martin Bemmann
Re : Ciboria / Rutstroemia (?)
The first Name of Hara is Kanesuke:

Martin Bemmann, 22-04-2025 10:29
Martin Bemmann
Re : Ciboria / Rutstroemia (?)
I created a PDF from Kohn&Nagasawa 1984 (attached).
Masanori Kutsuna, 23-04-2025 02:49
Re : Ciboria / Rutstroemia (?)
In 1919, Hara published at least four papers on C. camelliae (as Sclerotinia camelliae) in the following journals.
"Shizuokaken Noukaiho 256, 10-11", "Dainippon Sanrin Kaiho 436, 29-31", "Nouji Shinpo 13(5), 17-18", "Engei no Tomo 15, 385-388".

All in Japanese and almost identical in content.
"Dainippon Sanrin Kaiho" was published on March 15, 1919, but "Shizuokaken Noukaiho" was published earlier, on February 25.
This paper is not mentioned in Kohn and Nagasawa, IF, or MyCoBank, but I believe it is the earliest paper validly published.
This paper contains specimen data not found in the other papers.


The "Shizuokaken Noukaiho 256" archived at:
https://agriknowledge.affrc.go.jp/RN/2039006141.pdf


Kutsuna

Hans-Otto Baral, 23-04-2025 07:15
Hans-Otto Baral
Re : Ciboria / Rutstroemia (?)
Hi Kutsuna. Interesting! Is there a possibility to translate automatically?

The pdf is rather big, is this all about the fungus? I am mainly interested in spore size, but cannot find it in either version.

Zotto
Masanori Kutsuna, 23-04-2025 08:17
Re : Ciboria / Rutstroemia (?)
Hara's paper is p. 10-11. (attached)
Automatic translation seems difficult.

According to Hara's description, specimen collected on Apr. 21, 1918, ascospores are 8-11 × 4-5.


Kutsuna

Hans-Otto Baral, 23-04-2025 09:15
Hans-Otto Baral
Re : Ciboria / Rutstroemia (?)
Thanks a lot! That spore size makes sense.