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Thanks for the file. Do you or anyone have the color image of Helvella alpestris??

Yes Fidel

Here :

Thanks a lot,

Best,
Fidel

Hello Fidel,
I see that your interest came around Helvella alpestris. We are studying this group from several years... I can say that in the Alps, the diversity of little, black, cupulate Helvella is much more complicated than you will read in literature.
Please look at the ascus base and spore size of the Boudier's description of Helvella alpestris...
Regards
Mario

Dear Mario

Thank you very much for your comment. My interest on Helvella alpestris is that I have studied some material from Norway, which corresponds to "H. alpestris sensu Häffner (1987: 60-62)" , but not "sensu Boudier", so I think "H. alpestris sensu Häffner" is a new species and it is closed to Helvella sulcata complex (inside of section Lacunosae).

Have you checked this?

Best,
Fidel

When we began to study specimens, with cup-shaped apothecium and ribbed stipe, from Norway, we thought that these were specimens of Helvella dovrensis. So, we wrote to Dr. Schumacher, and he told us that they did not correspond to that species, because in H. dovrensis the apothecium sterile surface is subpubescent to pubescent (hyphal fascicles of 40-120 um) and with slightly shorter ascospores (16.5-18.2 x 11.5-13.5 um), while the specimens, which we were studyting, were glabrous to subpubescent (hyphal fascicles up to 50 um) and ascospores 17.5-20 x 10.5-13 um, and further with pleurorhynchous asci. Then, when we were reviewing the concept of "Helvella alpestris s.s. Häffner", we saw that such specimens are very similar, but unfortunately the concept of Häffner is not adequate for this species.

Also, we compared them with H. philonotis, but in this species the ribs of the stipe continues on the apothecium sterile surface and its apothecium is lobed at maturity (Dissing 1964: 117), while in the specimens that we studied the ribs are absent on the apothecium sterile surface.

And when we sequenced the specimens, they are related to Helvella lacunosa s.l., so we think they correspond to a new species, probably an alpine H. lacunosa s.l., H. sulcata s.l., or something like that.

Best,
Fidel

well,
I apologize, Fidel, but I feel that you are dealing with a species that you don't know on the field.
The ascomata of alpine species of Helvella remain on the ground for many weeks and they continue their morphological evolution. Usually the first apothecia of H. dovrensis (ss. me?!) - H. alpestris ss. Häffner appear in the middle of July, in the Alps not lower than 1800-1900 m, up to 2700 at least, then if some rain occurs (as usual) they live and grow until the first snowfalls at the beginning of September. Mature spores appear rather soon and then new asci are formed and the production of spores continues for weeks. Fruiting continues with new ascomata also, until September.
Young ascomata are more or less cup-shaped (usually rather irregular), then they can become discoid, saddle-shaped, then more or less confusely lobed. The ribs are almost absent at first, then they grow and can continue, or not, on the sterile surface. Usually the pubescence is also rather variable in this species.
Keep in mind that during this time, the wheater in our high mountains change every day; it is usual to have rain, cold dry winds, fog, frost in the night, and very strong sunlight (all Helvella species are black or almost so... Protection from the U.V. I think!).
So the macroscopical differences you cited can be, in my opinion, largely comprised in the variability of one species. And I don't have a very broad concept of species I think, that's just what I've seen on the field.
With this I don't want to say it's impossible you have a new species, but only that I think you need to better understand the variability before you decide.
Another thing would be if you have sequenced H. dovrensis and H. alpestris ss. Häffner, and these are proved to be different species. If so, I would be curious to understand what H. dovrensis is.
About the relation with H. lacunosa, I agree that the species I call H. dovrensis = H. alpestris ss. Schumacher must be comprised in sectio Lacunosae. The same is for mediterranean species like H. helvellula and H. semiobruta. This is a conclusion I came just observing the morphology; if you are interested I can send you some material for sequencing.
Regards
Mario

Dear Mario

You are right, I just know these species by herbarium specimens. I will write you by email to comment the loan of material.

Best,
Fidel

Oh my! So the shape of an alpine Helvella can varies from that of a Helvella macropus when beginning to grow, to that of a Helvella lacunosa when getting older? That needs to check the positions of stations with GPS and to study them quite often to reach those conclusions, otherwise, one wouldn't easily know!

Cheers - LUC.

Sorry Luc, not so easy...!
Because several different species are used to grow very close, and often mixed...
Good luck :))